Without having to rewrite the whole damn thing
Published on August 27, 2010 By awuffleablehedgie In War of Magic

A common complaint and a very large current balance issue is how the Tactical battles play out.

 

Problem: Champions do not scale well compared to rather mundane squads. Getting them "up to par" requires spending a LOT of gold at the shop, and even then they'll typically die in one hit.

Problem: Unit stacks are terrifying. You can get a unit with tons of health, tons of damage, tons of defense for... about 100 gilder, a few dozen materials and maybe half a dozen metal. A decent sum, yes, but nothing can really stop this except a similar unit.

Problem: Attacking is heavily favored because of how counter-attacks work

 

Proposed Reworks (in order of complexity):

First, increase the starting default HP for Peasants from 5 to 8. Increase the default starting hp for Champions from 10 to 20. Increase the default hp for Sovereigns from 10 to 25. The reason for this is that it becomes moderately more difficult to one-shot units (making counter-attacks and defense more viable). Increasing the Champion and Sovereign HP also makes them more difficult to one-shot (especially since Champions and Sovereigns are primary-targets for enemy archers and spell casters).

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Second, rework how Champions/Sovereigns level. Each time they level, they gain 1 point in Dex, Str, Intelligence, Essence/Wisdom, Charisma. 2 points in Constitution. .25 points in Combat Speed. 0 in Movement Speed (because of Organized). Then they get to spend their 1 point however they please. This makes Champions stay somewhat in-the-game with an appropriate amount of leveling up, while still allowing you to specialize them how you please.

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Third, make squads do less damage INSTANTLY as they lose models. If a group of 3 peasants loses a third of its hp (and therefore, one model) then it should only do 2/3rds of the attack and have 2/3rds of the defense. This should not apply to Champions or any one-unit summons/monsters/units. This is one of the benefits of a Champion. Assuming equal attack and defense powers on each side, the army with Champions will be able to do more damage for longer.

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Fourth, rather than a unit squad having a MASSIVE single attack value, make it roll multiple smaller ones. Eg, a group of 3 peasants rolls 3 rolls of 3 rather than one roll of 9. This makes defense much more vital (if you have 4 defense it will be applied against each roll, making it quite valuable). Consider the situation where a COMPANY of 12 peasants with clubs attack a decent Sovereign.

Peasants (currently): 60 HP. 36 Atk. 0 Def.

Sov (make believe, current system): 20 HP, 30 Atk. 7 Def.

In this situation, the Peasants would roll from 0-36 minus 0-7. This has a VERY VERY high chance in one-shotting the enemy Sov (which isn't that weak, mind you, either). That is a serious problem.

Changing it to rolling 12 rolls of 3, then, most likely, the Peasants would do very little damage to the Sov. Maybe 2-3. It would be absurdly unlikely for the Sov to get one-shotted. This is as it should be. Peasants are very low quality units. They should not kill Sovs that have a shred of defense, a decent weapon and combat ability (a Sov who pulled all of their points from Dex, Str, and Con might struggle a bit more against the peasants, obviously).

Under the current game, it is very difficult to get your defense up to 10. Even if you get it that high, it is VERY VERY expensive. However, it is not very difficult to get your attack to 10. So the system would be self-balancing. Note that a lot of the high-level monsters with very high defense would need to be brought down to a comparable level, and have their HP buffed instead. Also note that in this system, defense would not stack either. Eg, if you put a unit with 4 defense, it will only roll 4 defense from attacks. Not 4 x 12 == 48

Between the slight HP buff before and the reworking of attacking here, it should be rather difficult to one-shot units which makes counter-attacks much more of a risk

Consider the following situation:

Soldiers (using old-style damage stacking, 3 models): 3x5 HP. 3x10 Atk. 0 Def.

Soldiers (doing a more balanced build, 3 models): 3x5 HP. 3x6 Atk. 4 Def.

 

Old-way: the attackers would roll 0-30 minus 0-12. This would "average" to 15-6==9 damage.

New-way: The attackers would roll 3 rolls of 0-10 minus 0-4. This would "average" to 5 - 2 x3 == 9 damage.

=== the exact same. In this situation, the defender would retaliate with 2 rolls of attack (since one model was dead. See point 3 above)

However, this naturally pulls damage into a nice bell curve (Statistics). Repeated samples bring the result closer to the expected (9 damage). The current flat distribution means that what would become "outliers" (like rolling a 30, which would used to be 1/31 but is now 1/11 * 1/11 * 1/11 == 1/1331). This makes combat more predictable and less inclined to absurd damage rolls (either way).

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Fifth, change the rolls themselves to operate on a bell curve. To do this, Halve ALL attack and defense values. All of 'em.

Instead of rolling for defense, roll 100 each time (1-100). If they roll between a 16 and an 84, then it does the expected damage. If it does between 4 and 15, then it does half damage. If it does between 85 and 97, it does 1.5x damage. If it does between 1 and 3, it does quarter damage. If it does between 98 and 100, then it does double damage.

That's just doing it a very very simple way. You could do it using a proper bell curve and running the numbers (perhaps doing a look-up on a table. The math for it would be damage % == cumulative distribution function for the roll, which could be pre-populated. Then you could have it round-down to the integer).

This would also round out the combat system, making it much more predictable and letting proper strategy work rather than "find big attack, right click, cross fingers and hope for the best".

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Sixth, introduce variety when spawning units. Battle for Wesnoth does this awesomely. Whenever you build a unit, there are six traits, 2 of which are chosen:

Swift - +1 movement speed

Intelligent - 30% less XP required to level up

Strong  - +1 damage (melee)

Dextrous - +1 damage (ranged)

Resiliant - +5 HP

Fearless - do not have negative modifiers during wrong time of day

etc

 

Having similar traits on your units while built will make tactical combat much more exciting, since it introduces diversity. In general, tactical combat needs MORE diversity. More special attacks, more variables, more variety. More, more, more

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Seventh (though this is really simple), the changes of Morale need to be increased by 300% to 500% (not the effects of Morale, mind you ... whatever the hell it does). Rarely do I see morale drop below 40 or above 60. That is bad. The purpose of Morale, I think, is to prevent a weak army that would lose in a fair fight from running around in circles forever (in multiplayer). Right now, it doesn't do that.

Furthermore, I would make it when you hit 10 Morale, the "low-morale" side gets +1 movement and the "high-morale" side gets +2 Attack. The high movement allows a low-morale army to force-attack a fast army that is picking away at it slowly, then tear it up. (Imagine a 200 HP super-lizard unit with only 1 Combat speed, 100 attack, but 0 def against 2 swift archers with 10 HP, 5 attack but 3 Combat Speed... the lizard unit is clearly "stronger" but will never win against a good player. The movement speed for Morale gives the lizard unit a bit of a chance but they would still (probably) lose because the lizard would chase one archer who would run away while the other shot).

It also lets a losing army retreat off the tactical map easier, and the winning army pick off units as they do so (a good mechanic!).

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Finally, the AI just needs to be improved. It's very simplistic right now and rarely makes proper choices.


Comments
on Aug 27, 2010

Also speed up tactical battle animations.

on Aug 27, 2010

NT. Sent before finished.

on Aug 27, 2010

lswallie
Also speed up tactical battle animations.

Really, I think all models should have the animation. It would feel MUCH more epic. I think there should be three options (but this is pure graphical, not mechanical so not really relevant to this post):

1- No graphical animations (for the people who have seen it a thousand times already or with just slow computers)

2- Partial graphical animations (for people with slower computers... just one unit in a squad attacks)

3- Full graphical animations (all units in the squad do the attack animation). Elven Legacy does this VERY VERY VERY well, I wish Stardock stole that from them...

 

on Aug 27, 2010

Properly squad calculation would go a LONG way to making late game TC not suck insofar as being instagibbed by a mob of ill-equipped peasants and the like

on Aug 28, 2010

tagging to read later..

on Aug 28, 2010

Great ideas.

 

The main problem is still Squads and Attack / Defense / HP. This is really hurting my enjoyment of Elemental, and quite frankly I'm amazed that we couldn't get this changed in Beta.

 

Take this example...

 

I have a Party of Archers with Ceder Bows and my Sov, who has a short sword, so he has a decent attack.

 

I'm facing a Party of enemy soldiers with spears and low level armor. That little mob of low level mooks has a huge attack and defense because the values are stacked. Still, I manage to whittle away their health with my archers until they have one soldier left with 1 HP.

 

Now, seems like a Sov with a decent weapon and stats should be able to finish that last injured guy off, but no chance without huge luck because that last guy still has the full defense of the original stack, so he is almost impossible to hit, and he has the full attack, so his counterattack one shots my Sov.

 

Stuff like this is one of my #1 gripes with Elemental, and from the number of posts it seems that almost everyone is on the same page here with what we think the system should be. It just makes more sense logically and gameplay wise. Really hoping this can be a top priority change.

on Aug 28, 2010

One more thing : attack and defense should be simultaneous, only a "first strike" ability should let the attacker attack before the defender.

on Aug 28, 2010


Third, make squads do less damage INSTANTLY as they lose models. If a group of 3 peasants loses a third of its hp (and therefore, one model) then it should only do 2/3rds of the attack and have 2/3rds of the defense. This should not apply to Champions or any one-unit summons/monsters/units. This is one of the benefits of a Champion. Assuming equal attack and defense powers on each side, the army with Champions will be able to do more damage for longer.


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Fifth, change the rolls themselves to operate on a bell curve. To do this, Halve ALL attack and defense values. All of 'em.

Instead of rolling for defense, roll 100 each time (1-100). If they roll between a 16 and an 84, then it does the expected damage. If it does between 4 and 15, then it does half damage. If it does between 85 and 97, it does 1.5x damage. If it does between 1 and 3, it does quarter damage. If it does between 98 and 100, then it does double damage.

That's just doing it a very very simple way. You could do it using a proper bell curve and running the numbers (perhaps doing a look-up on a table. The math for it would be damage % == cumulative distribution function for the roll, which could be pre-populated. Then you could have it round-down to the integer).

This would also round out the combat system, making it much more predictable and letting proper strategy work rather than "find big attack, right click, cross fingers and hope for the best".


 

these are the only things i agree with

 

 

on Aug 28, 2010

Goontrooper


Now, seems like a Sov with a decent weapon and stats should be able to finish that last injured guy off, but no chance without huge luck because that last guy still has the full defense of the original stack, so he is almost impossible to hit, and he has the full attack, so his counterattack one shots my Sov.

To be honest I think the problem there isn't the results of the Sov attack, it's that he has to resort to physical attacks in the first place. It's kinda ironic that the much lauded powers of a channeller are slightly less effective than picking up a bow.

on Aug 28, 2010

Also, why isn't there a ranged defense and attack?  Also, why is the battle axe att 12, no specials, and the broadsword 10 with a bonus to speed?  Axes are great armor penetrators and outclass swords in this regard.  To me, their combat is mediocre.  It's pretty much just their space sim with turns.  Little to know specials for weapons or fighting styles or armor.  I mean check out chain.  Why even bother putting it in the game?

on Aug 28, 2010

Archonsod

Quoting Goontrooper, reply 6

Now, seems like a Sov with a decent weapon and stats should be able to finish that last injured guy off, but no chance without huge luck because that last guy still has the full defense of the original stack, so he is almost impossible to hit, and he has the full attack, so his counterattack one shots my Sov.

To be honest I think the problem there isn't the results of the Sov attack, it's that he has to resort to physical attacks in the first place. It's kinda ironic that the much lauded powers of a channeller are slightly less effective than picking up a bow.

 

I disagree. I have found spells to be one of the only effective ways to counter those big squads. Using several imbued Champions, I rain fireballs down on them and kill them off fairly effectively.

 

I can't do that with a Sov or Champion that has had tons of effort put into combat stats, equipment, and whatnot. That basic mook with a stick and some rags is still more powerful because he used to have  9 of his buddies with him, even though those 9 buddies are now full of arrows all over the battlefield. Making a melee-focused Sov or Champion should be perfectly viable, but right now it is gimped because of the way that squads stack their statistics and don't suffer any reduction of capabilities with losses. I'm not saying that a single Champion should be able to slaughter 10 enemy soldiers in a squad (I think a strong Champion should be able to, though). But a decent melee Champion should have no trouble with the situation I mentioned.

on Aug 28, 2010

Here's my suggested formula to put bell curves in:

(random(attack/3)+random(attack/3)+random(attack/3)

MINUS

(random(defense/3)+random(defense/3)+random(defense/3)

That gives a nice bell, easy to implement, and takes the insane luck factor out of this game so that I'd actually do things like USE the 25% defense increase in some terrain, knowing there's a good chance it might make an actual difference.